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Day Two: Morning |
1 (Lunch recess taken from 12:10 p.m. to
2 1:17 p.m.)
3 (Ms. Long is not present.)
4 BY MR. SALINGER:
5 Q. Okay. Mr. Steiner, at the conclusion
6 of this morning's session you were talking about
7 damages that you had observed for the first time
8 between mid December and January 18, 1993 -- mid
9 December 1992, January 18, 1993.
10 Is it a fair statement that up until
11 some point in early 1993 you didn't feel that this
12 landslide problem in the area was a problem that
13 involved your property?
14 A. That is true.
15 Q. So you didn't feel that this was your
16 problem, in effect?
17 A. That is true.
18 Q. In that same time frame, namely, mid
19 December 1992 to January 18, 1993, what, if
20 anything, was happening on the distress that you had
21 previously observed in the street out in front
22 of Arlen Steiner's property?
23 A. It was increasing.
24 Q. Was the stress appearing anyplace else
25 on the unnamed cul-de-sac, the street now?
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1 A. There was a crack further down closer
2 to the street itself, Avenida de Santiago, before
3 the cul-de-sac, but I'm not sure whether that was
4 occurring -- that must -- that was fairly close, I
5 believe, to the actual time of the landslide. I
6 don't --
7 Q. And when you talk about the time of the
8 landslide, you're talking about the movement that
9 took place on January 18?
10 A. Yes. Not the ancient landslide. The
11 reactivation of the ancient landslide, yes.
12 Q. In this time frame, mid December 1992
13 up to January 18, 1993, did you talk to anyone other
14 than your wife regarding what was occurring in your
15 house or on Avenida de Santiago or the unnamed
16 cul-de-sac?
17 A. Well, there was Mark McLarty -- you
18 know.
19 Q. I'm just talking about in that time
20 frame, just the mid December to January 18. I know
21 you talked to McLarty earlier when he was doing the
22 boring on the street, or borings on the street --
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. -- in September of 1992.
25 A. Right. Had I talked to any of my
284
1 neighbors? I don't have a specific recollection of
2 doing that.
3 Q. Did you observe any other distress or
4 damage involving other property or the unnamed
5 cul-de-sac or Avenida de Santiago by the time of
6 January 18, 1993?
7 A. The Friedmans' house, which seemed to
8 be getting worse.
9 Q. You could observe that from the street?
10 A. There was no way -- not really, no, I
11 couldn't. I couldn't observe that.
12 Q. What causes you to say it seemed to be
13 getting worse?
14 A. I don't really recall.
15 Q. Had you at any time prior to
16 January 18, 1993, seen water seeping out of the
17 slope that was below the Friedman property and above
18 the curb that constituted the south side of the
19 street of the unnamed cul-de-sac?
20 A. I don't recall. Of course when it was
21 raining, obviously, but other than when it was
22 raining, I don't recall it.
23 Q. Had you ever seen water running down
24 from that slope -- water and mud running down from
25 that slope onto the unnamed cul-de-sac and then
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1 going down in the gutter other than obvious times
2 when it was raining?
3 A. No, I don't. I don't have a
4 recollection of that.
5 Q. Had you ever seen water running from
6 slopes, green belts, properties, other than the
7 obvious time when it was raining, in the Anaheim
8 Hills area prior to January 18, 1993?
9 A. No. No, I didn't.
10 Q. Had you seen the water that some people
11 talked about that was on the eastern fork of Hidden
12 Canyon just before Hidden Canyon joins Serrano
13 Avenue?
14 A. Down there, yes. That actually was a
15 prevalent situation. It was ongoing and the city
16 was out there repairing the road constantly.
17 Yes, it was always a problem -- it
18 was an area where there was water flowing all the
19 time and it had nothing to do with rain or
20 sprinklers. There weren't broken sprinklers.
21 Q. Did you ever have any discussion with
22 anyone about the source of that water?
23 A. Prior to that time, no.
24 Q. At any time.
25 A. That was brought up at some of the
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1 meetings by others.
2 Q. "Meetings," now you're talking about
3 what's been referred to by people as town hall
4 meetings involving the city?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. When you say "brought up by others,"
7 brought up by homeowners at those meetings?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Was there ever any discussion by Mark
10 McLarty or some other consultant or employee of the
11 City of Anaheim regarding the source of that water?
12 A. I don't recall. Do you mean at the
13 meetings?
14 Q. Right.
15 A. There was miscellaneous conversation,
16 but no -- nothing pinpointing the cause.
17 Q. Did you ever form an opinion as to
18 where that water came from?
19 A. No, not really. I just saw it happen
20 year in and year out. I mean, it was constant. The
21 city was constantly repairing it. And my feeling
22 was that the city just didn't care.
23 Q. The city was constantly repairing the
24 street?
25 A. Constantly repairing the street. It
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1 was constantly being undermined and washed away and
2 they were constantly repairing.
3 Q. Does water still flow at that location?
4 A. I haven't been there.
5 Q. That's right. You don't have occasion
6 to drive by there at all?
7 A. No.
8 Q. Not on the way to Mission Viejo?
9 A. No, not on the way to heaven. No,
10 I left purgatory.
11 Q. Now, talking about January 18th, we've
12 already -- strike that.
13 You've already indicated that you were
14 evacuated that day. Can you describe to me
15 whether -- when was it that you were told by the
16 City of Anaheim to leave?
17 A. You mean the police? I was told by the
18 police.
19 Q. Okay. Why don't you describe to me
20 what happened. When the police came to your door,
21 what happened?
22 A. There were two policemen knocking at
23 the door and they said, "You have to evacuate the
24 house now."
25 And said, "I do not intend on
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1 evacuating."
2 They said, "You have to. If you don't
3 evacuate, we're going to arrest you, and we're going
4 to be back in an hour to check."
5 Q. Did you --
6 A. I believe it was an hour. He might
7 have said by 9:00 o'clock, something of that nature.
8 Q. What time of the day did they come by
9 your house?
10 A. I believe it was 6:00 o'clock,
11 something like that, 6:00 or 7:00 o'clock.
12 MR. LOGAN: A.M. or P.M.?
13 THE WITNESS: In the afternoon. I believe it
14 was getting dark when they knocked at the door.
15 MR. LOGAN: Excuse me.
16 BY MR. SALINGER:
17 Q. Was there anything else stated by the
18 City of Anaheim Police Department personnel or you
19 during that conversation?
20 A. I was just taken back by when they said
21 they were going to arrest me. I was never -- I have
22 never been arrested.
23 Q. That conversation took place at the
24 front porch of your house?
25 A. At the front door, at the front door,
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1 yes.
2 Q. Was your wife involved in that
3 conversation?
4 A. No, she wasn't.
5 Q. Were either of your kids?
6 A. No, they weren't.
7 Q. Were your kids home at the time?
8 A. Douglas wasn't and Anastasia was.
9 Q. Douglas was living off campus at the
10 time?
11 A. He was living on campus at USC.
12 Q. Had there been anything else that
13 happened prior in the day that was in any -- that
14 after the fact now you attribute in any way to the
15 landslide?
16 A. Pardon me?
17 Q. Let me try and rephrase that. I'm
18 wondering whether there was anything else that
19 occurred on January 18, 1993, prior to the police
20 arriving saying you had to evacuate that involved
21 you or your family -- rather, that affected you and
22 your family that you believe related to the
23 landslide?
24 A. I believe that was when they tarred the
25 crack. That -- we had been contacting the city
290
1 about the water constantly flowing into that crack
2 because the water from our area flowed directly down
3 the street into the wide open crack that was raised.
4 The water was just flowing right into it like a
5 river.
6 Q. And it was raining heavily during that
7 period, right?
8 A. And it was raining and the city just
9 never sent anybody out to do anything about it.
10 Q. And you had called up the city to tell
11 them about the situation?
12 A. We had -- by "we," my wife called a
13 couple times. She called at least twice.
14 Q. You --
15 A. And the previous time they said they
16 had -- you know the story, they were going to send
17 out a truck and they never did.
18 And the next time they said there was a
19 truck on the way, it was hours later when a truck
20 did come, just an hour or so before the camera crews
21 arrived. That was an interesting thing, I thought.
22 They made it just before the camera crews.
23 Q. So the truck came and started to
24 asphalt --
25 A. Yes, to tar.
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1 Q. -- to tar that portion --
2 A. Yes, they poured in tar. Yes, they
3 put a bunch of tar in there and then they ran a
4 drain to bring it right through, since the ground
5 had raised so it would still just sit there and go
6 into the grass because they can't tar the grass, so
7 they created a drain to give the water a chance to
8 escape.
9 Q. Was water flowing from that location
10 onto Arlen Steiner's property?
11 A. Yes. It was going -- it was going
12 through to his property, yes. The crack separated
13 and so they filled -- they tarred the cracks in the
14 curb. The concrete curb was covered with tar.
15 Q. Was this on the south side of the
16 street or the north side or both?
17 A. They tarred the curbs on both sides of
18 the street.
19 Q. And you said the city crew arrived
20 before the camera crew arrived?
21 A. Before the TV stations came out, an
22 hour before. So they obviously have a bug at the
23 stations, a mole.
24 Q. Are you saying, Mr. Steiner, that the
25 city alerted the TV station, or stations?
292
1 A. No. I'm saying that they found out
2 that the TV stations knew that there was a problem
3 up there and they wanted to cover up their tracks by
4 tarring it over before the TV stations got there.
5 Q. Had you called the TV stations?
6 A. No. We certainly didn't.
7 Q. Do you have any idea as to who called
8 the TV stations?
9 A. I have no idea. Thank God they came.
10 Q. So did the TV stations arrive in time
11 to photograph the crew, the city crew, doing its
12 work on the street?
13 A. That, I'm not sure. That, I'm not
14 sure.
15 Q. Anything else happen that day involving
16 your property or the unnamed cul-de-sac or Avenida
17 de Santiago that you're aware of before you were
18 asked to evacuate or told to evacuate by the City of
19 Anaheim Police Department?
20 A. No. I just -- other than what was on
21 the news as far as giving me more knowledge what was
22 happening. There were helicopters.
23 Q. Had you gone to work and come home by
24 the time you were asked to evacuate?
25 A. I don't recall my work schedule that
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1 day.
2 Q. After you were told by the Anaheim
3 Police Department to evacuate, what did you do?
4 A. I accepted it and evacuated.
5 Q. Did you, your wife and daughter gather
6 up your possessions and drive someplace? I'm just
7 trying to figure out what the next step was after
8 you had been told you were to be evacuated.
9 A. They had left before me.
10 Q. And as I understand it, you moved into
11 the building that houses Excalibur Entertainment?
12 A. Yes, we had moved into the warehouse.
13 Q. Were there any beds there before you
14 moved there?
15 A. No, no.
16 Q. I take it you moved beds there from
17 someplace?
18 A. Yes. We had brought a bed from one
19 of the guest rooms and we brought one of those
20 collapsible beds. So we had two beds there.
21 Q. So you, your wife and daughter spent
22 the evening of January 18th in the warehouse?
23 A. That's where we slept for the next five
24 months.
25 Q. Did you move anything else there from
294
1 your house other than what you just described?
2 A. Max and Opus, our dogs, and our cats
3 and our parrot.
4 Q. Anything else that you moved there?
5 A. Two truckloads of plants. It might
6 have been three truckloads of plants.
7 Q. Where did you put those?
8 A. On the side where we had vehicles
9 parking. They no longer could park there then.
10 Q. Anything else that you moved out of
11 your house to the warehouse during the period --
12 during the five-month period that you were living
13 there?
14 A. Well, all of our belongings, everything
15 we owned -- everything. We moved everything out of
16 the house.
17 Q. Do you mean to include your furniture?
18 A. Everything, yes, everything.
19 Q. So as I understand your testimony, you,
20 your wife and daughter lived in the warehouse from
21 mid January 1993 until mid June 1993?
22 A. It was a five-month period.
23 Q. Let me show you a document dated
24 January 18, 1992. The first page says "Notice of
25 Closed Area," three-page document. The second two
295
1 pages are proclamation of emergency.
2 MR. SALINGER: That is next in order. What's
3 that?
4 MS. CALAWAY: 45.
5 MR. SALINGER: 45.
6 (Defendant's Exhibit 45 was marked for
7 identification by the Certified Shorthand Reporter,
8 a copy of which is attached hereto.)
9 BY MR. SALINGER:
10 Q. This notice of closed area and the
11 proclamation of the existence of a local emergency,
12 were you given this by the police when they came to
13 your residence at around 6:00 p.m. on the 18th?
14 A. I would have been, yes. I was right,
15 "Must leave area by 9:00." Yes.
16 Q. Did you have any discussion with the
17 police when they came as to why you were being told
18 you had to evacuate?
19 A. Did they discuss it? They made
20 statements.
21 Q. What did they say?
22 A. That there was a landslide occurring.
23 Q. Did you respond in any way to them?
24 A. I told them I wasn't going to leave.
25 Q. Beyond that, did you say anything other
296
1 than that?
2 A. No.
3 Q. And was it still your view at that
4 point on January 18 that the landslide did not
5 involve your property?
6 A. I still felt, actually, at that time
7 that my property would be there when everything else
8 was gone.
9 Q. And that was based upon the belief that
10 you have told me about this morning that you --
11 A. And previously, yes.
12 Q. -- and previously, that you were on a
13 rock?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Anything else you can tell us about the
16 conversation you had with the police when they asked
17 you or when they told you to evacuate?
18 A. No.
19 Q. I notice on the bottom of the first
20 page it says "Lieutenant Vince Howard," I think it's
21 Howard. Do you know the name of either of the
22 policemen that came to your house?
23 A. No. Even if they told me and even if I
24 have repeated it, I'm sure I wouldn't recall it.
25 Q. At some point you were told by the city
297
1 that you could reenter your house, correct?
2 A. No.
3 Q. Did you ever learn that you could
4 reenter your house?
5 A. You're misstating what the city said.
6 Q. Didn't the city at some point say if
7 you obtained certain information for the city, you
8 would be allowed to reenter your house?
9 A. At your own risk!
10 Q. Okay. So the city did say that with
11 that statement attached that you just told me,
12 correct?
13 MR. STONER: Objection. Vague.
14 THE WITNESS: My primary remembrance of that
15 was the statement "at your own risk."
16 BY MR. SALINGER:
17 Q. Do you know when the city told you
18 that?
19 A. No, I don't recall.
20 Q. Was it approximately two, two and a
21 half months after you were evacuated?
22 A. That seems probable.
23 Q. Had you made a decision before that
24 time that you and your family would never move back
25 into your house?
298
1 A. My wife was frightened.
2 Q. And so -- let me just ask you again.
3 Had you made a decision that you wouldn't move back
4 into the house at some time prior to when the city
5 said you could move back into the house at your own
6 risk?
7 A. My decision was made on the statements
8 of the city's geologist, Mark McLarty.
9 Q. And right now I'm just asking you when
10 you made that decision not to move back in.
11 A. I don't recall the moment in time.
12 Q. Was it some point in the February/March
13 time frame of 1993?
14 A. It would have been -- it would have to
15 have been prior to April 1st of '93.
16 Q. Why do you say that?
17 A. Because that's when I made the decision
18 to donate the house.
19 Q. You say your decision not to reoccupy
20 the house was made based upon statements that Mark
21 McLarty made?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. Which specific statements are you
24 talking about?
25 A. His statement that it would be at least
299
1 five years before the area would stabilize and
2 probably ten years and that something had to be done
3 to regain equilibrium.
4 Q. Okay. Regarding the statement that it
5 had to be at least five and probably ten years, was
6 it before the area would stabilize? Is that what
7 you said?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Where did Mr. McLarty make that
10 statement?
11 A. It was either at the medical center or
12 at the --
13 Q. Mormon church?
14 A. Yes. I was going to say Rosicrucians,
15 but they're Mormons. Yes.
16 Q. Now, was this done as part of the
17 general presentation by Mr. McLarty?
18 A. He had said that during his general
19 presentation that it was -- it would take quite a
20 while and he wasn't able to define the amount of
21 time, and it was -- the five to ten years, I
22 believe, was a statement afterwards in conversation.
23 Q. This was one of these post general
24 presentation meetings --
25 A. Yes.
300
1 Q. -- where you came up afterwards and
2 spoke with Mr. McLarty?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And was this the one that you alluded
5 to last time where you thought Mr. Springmeier and
6 Mr. Clayton were in the vicinity when he made that
7 comment?
8 A. That was -- let's see -- actually I'm
9 not sure if it was then when they were standing
10 there. That, I'm not sure.
11 Q. Now, I'll represent to you that the
12 town hall meeting at the Mormon church took place on
13 the 27th of January 1993, then there was a meeting
14 at the Anaheim Memorial Hospital on February 10,
15 1993.
16 So is it accurate to state that by at
17 least February 10 you had made a decision not to
18 reoccupy your house?
19 A. No.
20 Q. So Mr. McLarty said something after
21 that date that had caused you to make the decision?
22 A. It wasn't so much something he said
23 after the date. It was a matter of -- a lot of
24 times when you acquire knowledge, it takes really a
25 while for the true ramifications of the knowledge
301
1 to sink in and this is what this was.
2 Q. Okay. So, in other words, sometime
3 after these statements were made by Mr. McLarty in
4 the end of January, early February time frame, you
5 mulled it over and then you made your decision not
6 to move back in; is that correct?
7 A. It was prior -- it was prior to
8 April 1st of '93.
9 Q. Did you discuss that decision with
10 anyone other than your wife prior to making it?
11 A. I made the decision on my own.
12 Q. I understand that. I'm just wondering
13 whether in the process of making that decision.
14 A. No. Not in that context, no.
15 Afterwards, obviously, I did. I contacted Interval
16 House and, you know, started that process.
17 Q. Is it accurate that after January 17,
18 1993, you and your wife never spent a whole evening
19 in that house?
20 A. That's accurate. We never -- to my
21 knowledge, we never slept another evening at that
22 house, and it was a house then.
23 Q. Now, the other statement that you said
24 impacted your decision from Mr. McLarty is that
25 something needed to be done to regain equilibrium.
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1 Was that something Mr. McLarty said at a town hall
2 presentation or again a statement made to you
3 individually?
4 A. This was individually. Though he --
5 the prelude to the meetings was his statements of
6 the factor of when it started, the slide, it was a
7 factor of 1 and building is a factor of 1.4 and the
8 best that this could ever be would be a factor of
9 1.2. So that -- those figures and those statements
10 had an effect on me too.
11 Q. Anything else that Mr. McLarty said
12 that played a role in your decision to not move back
13 into your house?
14 A. His description of how it actually
15 happened. That process made me feel that there
16 wasn't a real cure to the problem.
17 Q. What was it that he said about the
18 process that led you to conclude that there wasn't a
19 cure?
20 A. The filling in of the valleys, which
21 plugged all the natural drains, and the loss of
22 lateral support when the street was constructed,
23 Serrano. The EIRs did have an effect too.
24 Q. Your review of the EIRs for the area?
25 A. Yes.
303
1 Q. Loss of lateral support in the
2 construction of the street, talking about Serrano
3 now?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. Was that said by Mr. McLarty at a
6 meeting or just to you?
7 A. It was actually a question I asked him.
8 Q. Individually, then --
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. -- as opposed to at the meeting?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. What about the filling in of the
13 valleys and plugging the natural drain?
14 A. That was at the meeting.
15 Q. So general presentation --
16 A. To the homeowners, yes.
17 Q. Anything else that Mr. McLarty said
18 that was a factor in your decision to decide not to
19 move back into your house?
20 A. I think that was mainly it. I can't recall
21 anything else at this time.
22 Q. And as far as dating when you heard
23 these things from Mr. McLarty, the best you can do
24 right now is say this is before April 1 when you
25 made your decision?
304
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. Regarding the loss of lateral support
3 by the grading of Serrano, did Mr. McLarty tell you
4 that it was any particular portion of Serrano or did
5 he say anything beyond the statement you just made?
6 A. He specifically mentioned where it juts
7 by the Georgetown area.
8 Q. Where it jets?
9 A. Juts.
10 Q. Juts?
11 A. Where the hill comes down.
12 Q. And what did he say about that precise
13 area?
14 A. That the removal of the earth, when the
15 road was built, lateral support was removed and that
16 would accentuate any problems that might occur,
17 while it might be fine in a case of if there wasn't
18 an ancient landslide in that area.
19 Q. As Mr. McLarty was saying this, did you
20 or anyone else around him have any question about
21 that statement?
22 MR. STONER: Tom, you've already covered this
23 conversation at length in the first session. Why
24 are we going over it again?
25 MR. SALINGER: I didn't ask him this question
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1 I just now asked him.
2 MR. STONER: You've asked him -- three of the
3 last four questions you've asked him before.
4 MR. SALINGER: I don't think I've asked them.
5 MR. STONER: You asked him on page 119 of the
6 first session, "What else do you recall about that
7 conversation?" and he told you a whole bunch of
8 things. You've asked that question again today.
9 I mean, is it your intent to go back
10 through what he had testified before and ask him in
11 the past month if he's thought of anything else? Is
12 that where we're going with this?
13 MR. SALINGER: No, that's not where we're
14 going. I'm about done with this. I just have a
15 couple more questions I did not ask last time.
16 Q. And one question I don't believe I
17 asked last time or this time to date is whether when
18 Mr. McLarty made these statements, whether you or
19 anyone around asked any question about the basis for
20 this -- for his comment?
21 A. His comment was in answer to my
22 question.
23 Q. I understand it was in response to a
24 question that you asked. I'm wondering whether --
25 A. Did I follow it up with another
306
1 question?
2 Q. Yes. Or did anyone else there?
3 A. No, not that I recall.
4 Q. Was anyone else who was a consultant or
5 employee with the city involved in that
6 conversation?
7 MR. STONER: Other than Mr. McLarty?
8 MR. SALINGER: I said "anyone else."
9 MR. STONER: I didn't know who the "anyone
10 else" was that you are talking about.
11 BY MR. SALINGER:
12 Q. Anyone other than Mr. McLarty?
13 A. I don't believe so. No one was
14 involved in that conversation that works for the
15 city that I know of.
16 Q. Are you aware of anyone having spent
17 the entire evening, slept in your property, since
18 you left on January 18, 1993?
19 A. I am not aware of anyone sleeping
20 there; though, you did say you saw shoes there.
21 Q. I said I saw some personal property
22 there, and I think I even saw some toothbrushes.
23 Do you have any criticism of the City
24 of Anaheim for evacuating you from your property?
25 MR. STONER: You mean the actual fact of
307
1 evacuating them or the heavy-handed manner in which
2 it was done?
3 MR. SALINGER: I'll go with my question.
4 MR. STONER: Objection. Vague, compound.
5 THE WITNESS: I don't know -- do I have
6 any complaints with the city the fact that we were
7 evacuated? I believe we should have been evacuated,
8 yes. So I can't complain about that.
9 BY MR. SALINGER:
10 Q. Do you know, was there any vandalism to
11 your property once you moved out, or once you were
12 evacuated, I should say?
13 A. Not to my knowledge. Just minor, a
14 a lock was broken, but nothing happened.
15 Q. Now, Mr. Steiner, you attended a number
16 of town hall meetings, you've already testified --
17 let me start that over again.
18 You've testified to attending a number
19 of town hall meetings. Did you attend all the ones
20 that the city participated in?
21 MR. STONER: Objection. No foundation, calls
22 for speculation.
23 THE WITNESS: I believe I was at all of them.
24 BY MR. SALINGER:
25 Q. Okay. Let me mark as next in order a
308
1 document captioned, and it's a duplex document, it's
2 captioned on the first side "Commonly Asked
3 Questions Relating to the Santiago and Pegasus
4 Landslide Incidents, January 27, 1993." And that
5 will be 46, I think.
6 MR. STONER: I'm not familiar with the term
7 "duplex document."
8 THE WITNESS: Two-sided.
9 (Defendant's Exhibit 46 was marked for
10 identification by the Certified Shorthand Reporter,
11 a copy of which is attached hereto.)
12 BY MR. SALINGER:
13 Q. Is this a document you were given at
14 the January 27th meeting that took place at the
15 Mormon church?
16 A. It looks very familiar.
17 Q. Did you have any discussions with any
18 employee or anyone who you understood to be a
19 representative of the City of Anaheim at this
20 meeting other than perhaps Mr. McLarty?
21 A. It would have just been in passing.
22 Nothing -- I don't really recall anything of
23 pertinence. I'm a congenial sort.
24 Q. So other than being congenial with
25 people, you don't recall any conversation --
309
1 A. I believe that something was said to
2 Ms. Lockwood, but I really don't recall. I didn't
3 hit her with a pie.
4 MR. LOGAN: Excuse me? I didn't hear your
5 last answer.
6 THE WITNESS: I didn't hit her with a pie.
7 BY MR. SALINGER:
8 Q. Is there anything that -- strike that.
9 Let me show you another document dated
10 February 17, 1993. It's a letter to you from
11 Natalie Lockman. I'll mark that one as next in
12 order.
13 (Defendant's Exhibit 47 was marked for
14 identification by the Certified Shorthand Reporter,
15 a copy of which is attached hereto.)
16 THE REPORTER: 47.
17 (Discussion was held off the record.)
18 BY MR. SALINGER:
19 Q. Mr. Steiner, this references a meeting
20 held February 10, 1993, at the Anaheim Memorial
21 Hospital Medical Center where you, at least
22 according to Ms. Lockman, referred to a map.
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Do you recall that meeting at the
25 Anaheim Memorial Hospital Medical Center?
310
1 A. Yes.
2 Q. What map is it that you apparently
3 referred to at that meeting?
4 A. Geological map. That was the one that
5 Mark McLarty said I should stop by and see the
6 revised updated version.
7 Q. The last paragraph, or at least the
8 paragraph above the last sentence, says, "In view of
9 this, I am requesting that you make available to me
10 or my staff a copy of your map."
11 Did you respond to Ms. Lockman's
12 request?
13 A. It was a ludicrous statement. No, I
14 didn't respond. Mark McLarty, the geologist, told me
15 he had an updated map of it.
16 Q. This map, the geology map, where did
17 you get it?
18 A. I got it from an ex-city worker.
19 Q. Mr. Anderson?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Who is it that you got the map from?
22 A. I don't have the person's name with me.
23 Q. How did this ex-city person happen to
24 get you the map?
25 A. I was called and I went to their house.
311
1 Q. Was this person a male or a female?
2 A. Female.
3 Q. And what did this person tell you?
4 A. That they had a map which showed the
5 active landslides area -- or the landslide areas
6 in Orange County.
7 Q. So it was a countywide map? It was one
8 that pages of it showed areas throughout the county?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. And you said this lady was a former
11 employee of the City of Anaheim?
12 A. I believe the county.
13 Q. Do you have her name anywhere?
14 A. I should be able to find her name.
15 Q. Can we leave a blank in the deposition
16 booklet and I'd like to have you, with your
17 counsel's blessing, insert the name once you
18 discover it.
19 MR. STONER: If he has 60 days.
20 MR. SALINGER: 60 days to insert the name or
21 to review the transcript?
22 MR. STONER: To review the transcript.
23 MR. SALINGER: Well, if you want to wrap it
24 up into that issue, I can't make that commitment at
25 this time.
312
1 MR. STONER: Then you might as well not leave
2 a blank.
3 MR. SALINGER: Well, leave a blank. Whether
4 he fills it in or not can be the subject of debate.
5 (INFORMATION REQUESTED: ______________
6 ___________________________________________________
7 __________________________________________________.)
8 BY MR. SALINGER:
9 Q. Where might you have that name?
10 A. I should be able to find it on my
11 Rolodex.
12 Q. Now, this is somebody who you didn't
13 know previously who called you up --
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. -- and invited you to her house?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. Did she tell you how she got your name?
18 A. I believe in the newspaper.
19 Q. In the telephone conversation you had
20 with her, why don't you tell me what was said in
21 that conversation as best you can recollect.
22 A. She said she had a map of the landslide
23 areas in Orange County and that she thought what had
24 occurred in our area had been noted on there
25 already.
313
1 Q. Did she say anything else?
2 A. Basically not in that conversation, in
3 the phone conversation.
4 Q. At the meeting you had with her at her
5 house --
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. -- was anyone else present?
8 A. No. It was just her and I. I'm
9 trustworthy, though.
10 Q. Good. Well, in that case, what was
11 said?
12 A. She showed me the map and I told her I
13 would have copies made of it and return it to her,
14 which I did.
15 And she stated that there was a rush to
16 building in the Anaheim area and that in many cases
17 there were -- they zoned too closely for the -- for
18 the land use. In some areas, obviously, it should
19 have been left as natural.
20 Q. Anything else?
21 A. Basically that was the gist. It was
22 her feeling that the cities had overlooked caution
23 in many cases.
24 Q. Did you say "the city" or "the cities"?
25 A. Her feeling was the Orange County
314
1 cities, that Anaheim wasn't the only city that was
2 at fault.
3 Q. Did she tell you what position she
4 previously had with the county?
5 A. Yes, she did.
6 Q. And what was that?
7 A. Offhand I can't -- I cannot recall.
8 I'd be misstating if I did.
9 Q. Did she tell you she had just recently
10 left the employ of the county?
11 A. No. She hadn't -- I believe she hadn't
12 worked for the county for something like ten years
13 prior.
14 Q. Do you have any idea as to how old a
15 person she was when you spoke to her? How old a
16 person she is now, we'll go with that.
17 A. She's probably 60 right now. I hate --
18 you know, I hate saying a woman's age.
19 Q. I understand.
20 MR. STONER: You better hope she's at least
21 75.
22 BY MR. SALINGER:
23 Q. I was going to say, any chance I had
24 previously to get her name from you is now
25 diminished significantly.
315
1 Did you talk about anything else when
2 you visited her house?
3 A. She talked about land subsidence in
4 general.
5 Q. What did she say?
6 A. She mentioned that they even had
7 problems in her area. By "they," I meant the
8 people in her neighborhood, were having problems
9 with some land movement, but it was more of a
10 settling than anything else.
11 Q. Where did she live?
12 A. I believe it's -- I believe it's
13 Orange.
14 Q. Do you know the name of the street?
15 A. No. No, I don't.
16 Q. How about the name of the development?
17 A. I had a heck of a time finding it.
18 Q. Was it a single-family house?
19 A. Yes, single story.
20 Q. Did she live there with anyone else?
21 A. Not to my knowledge.
22 Q. Did she say anything else in this
23 conversation when you went to visit her at her
24 house?
25 A. Nothing else -- she might have
316
1 mentioned her wallpaper, but nothing pertinent.
2 Q. Did you talk about EIRs?
3 A. I don't believe we -- probably we did.
4 Probably we did.
5 Q. Did she give you anything other than
6 this map?
7 A. No. That's all.
8 Q. Now, was it a multi-sheet map that she
9 gave you?
10 A. No. A single sheet.
11 Q. Was this the 1975 geologic map?
12 A. I believe so. I believe that's the
13 date on it. I think so.
14 Q. You said you were going to make copies
15 and return it to her. I take it --
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. -- you did that?
18 A. Yes, I did.
19 Q. Did you physically give it back to her
20 personally, I mean, as opposed to mailing it to her?
21 A. I personally brought it over. I don't
22 believe she was home at the time. I believe I left
23 it.
24 Q. Did you ever talk to her again?
25 A. No.
317
1 Q. Was this sometime in January of '93
2 that you had this conversation and to pick up this
3 map?
4 A. It would have been.
5 Q. Anything else that you recall about
6 this meeting with the lady that you can tell us
7 about?
8 A. There is nothing else. I was trying to
9 think of -- she had talked about her education, but
10 I had forgotten that. I have forgotten what it was.
11 Q. Was it in the context of telling you
12 about her --
13 A. Her expertise, yes.
14 Q. Did she have expertise in the area of
15 engineering or geology?
16 A. Yes. I'm not sure if it's geology,
17 though, but engineering I know.
18 Q. Do you know if she was a licensed
19 engineer of any sort?
20 A. I believe so.
21 Q. Did you learn anything about her work
22 experience other than the fact that she had worked
23 for the County of Orange at some point?
24 A. I believe she taught, but where, I
25 don't know.
318
1 Q. Did she at any time indicate that she
2 had worked for the City of Anaheim?
3 A. I believe she did.
4 Q. Do you know what she did for the City
5 of Anaheim?
6 A. No, I don't.
7 Q. Do you know when it was that she worked
8 for the City of Anaheim?
9 A. No, I don't know those dates.
10 Q. Do you believe it was immediately prior
11 to working for the County of Orange?
12 A. That, I'm not sure, and I don't know
13 what the time span was.
14 Q. Was it your understanding that her
15 employment with the -- strike that.
16 Was it your belief that when you met
17 her, she was not employed?
18 A. No, that wasn't my belief, but I don't
19 recall what she was doing.
20 Q. But it was your understanding she had
21 left the County of Orange's employ sometime
22 previously?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And you believe you still have her name
25 on your Rolodex at home?
319
1 A. I believe so.
2 Q. Is that at home --
3 A. No.
4 Q. -- or at your office?
5 A. Everything is at my office, practically
6 everything.
7 Q. And it would be under her name or under
8 City of Anaheim?
9 A. I'm not sure. It depends on my passing
10 mood.
11 Q. Did you provide a copy of that map to
12 your attorneys for production in connection with the
13 production requests in this case?
14 A. I believe I did.
15 Q. Had you undertaken any sort of
16 investigation as to the cause of the landslide prior
17 to meeting with this lady?
18 A. I was trying to become informed.
19 Q. What were you doing in order to try and
20 become informed?
21 A. I was talking to builders.
22 Q. Anything else?
23 A. I was reading as much as I could.
24 Q. When you say "talking to builders," any
25 particular builders you talked to? Strike that.
320
1 What were the names of the builders you
2 talked to?
3 A. I don't recall.
4 Q. Do you recall the names of any of the
5 builders you spoke to?
6 A. No, I don't.
7 Q. How did you determine which builders to
8 contact?
9 A. I didn't. I was receiving phone calls.
10 Q. So various people in addition to this
11 lady were --
12 A. Calling me.
13 Q. -- calling you with information?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Do you recall the names of any builder
16 that contacted you?
17 A. No, I don't. I don't recall.
18 Q. Going back to the conversation with the
19 lady --
20 MR. STONER: I'm going to object. Asked and
21 answered. You know, it hasn't even been two minutes
22 since you asked that exact same question.
23 BY MR. SALINGER:
24 Q. Did you take any notes on your meeting
25 with the lady?
321
1 A. No, I didn't.
2 Q. Did you take any notes at your meeting
3 with -- or your telephone conversations, rather,
4 with any builders?
5 A. No, I didn't.
6 Q. Did you meet with any builders?
7 A. No, I didn't.
8 Q. Did any of the builders who you talked
9 to send you any material to review?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Were these people, these builders, who
12 built in Anaheim Hills that called you?
13 A. One I recall, he was -- I believe he
14 was a builder in Laguna.
15 Q. Do you recall what he said?
16 A. He was discussing methods of curing the
17 problem.
18 Q. You also said that you were reading
19 about the problem -- or reading to become
20 knowledgeable, I think is what you said. How did
21 you determine what to read?
22 A. I have a library and I pull out books
23 and read them.
24 Q. Since you're residing in your -- well,
25 strike that.
322
1 Your library, did it have books on
2 construction?
3 A. Geology. You'll see it in the Auntie
4 Lee's Meat Pies.
5 (Ms. Long enters the room.)
6 BY MR. SALINGER:
7 Q. Prior to this problem developing, you
8 had books on geology in your home --
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. -- library?
11 A. Yes. Just general.
12 Q. How did you -- strike that.
13 Was there anything in particular that
14 caused you to have books on geology prior to this
15 landslide?
16 A. My wife loves buying Time-Life
17 libraries.
18 Q. Was there any material you acquired to
19 read about this problem that was not already in your
20 library?
21 A. That's true except for, obviously,
22 whatever was published in the newspapers I read.
23 Q. Did you at some point go to the City of
24 Anaheim to review what was in the City of Anaheim's
25 records?
323
1 A. No, I didn't.
2 Q. Did you at some point go to the county
3 to see what was in the county's records?
4 A. No, I didn't.
5 Q. Did you go to any facility or anyplace
6 that had records regarding the development of the
7 Anaheim Hills or Orange County in general to review
8 things in connection with the development of Anaheim
9 Hills?
10 A. No, I didn't.
11 MR. STONER: When we get to a stopping point,
12 I figured we can maybe take a break.
13 MR. SALINGER: We can do it right now.
14 MR. STONER: It's hard to focus on this
15 discussion of his reading habits.
16 THE WITNESS: Okay. I'm boring. I can't
17 help it.
18 MR. SALINGER: I think, Mr. Steiner, he's
19 talking more about the questions, not the answers,
20 just a wild guess.
21 (Recess taken from 2:33 p.m. to
22 2:43 p.m.)
23 BY MR. SALINGER:
24 Q. Did anyone assist you in this
25 investigation other than the lady from the county --
324
1 or had been an employee of the county?
2 A. It was my investigation. No, I don't
3 know how to answer that other than, yes, I talked
4 to people and I would ask them questions.
5 Q. You said you talked to builders and you
6 talked to this lady and you did some reading. My
7 question is whether anyone assisted you, whether --
8 other than what you've just described.
9 A. No. On my own. I didn't have any
10 assistance.
11 Q. You produced some portions of EIRs.
12 Let's mark these documents from your production in
13 this case as next in order, 48.
14 (Defendant's Exhibit 48 was marked for
15 identification by the Certified Shorthand Reporter,
16 a copy of which is attached hereto.)
17 BY MR. SALINGER:
18 Q. Mr. Steiner, you've seen these
19 documents before?
20 A. They look familiar, yes.
21 Q. Is that your handwriting that is on the
22 first page of Exhibit 48, the one that's got the
23 unique identification number of PMS 17966?
24 A. No, it isn't.
25 Q. Do you know whose handwriting that is?
325
1 A. No, I don't.
2 Q. Have you ever -- strike that.
3 There are certain portions of EIRs that
4 are marked. For example, on page PMS 17968, there's
5 a marking in the margin, a line indicating other
6 landslides, and it goes over to page 57, or, I
7 should say, PMS 17969.
8 Did you put that marking in the margin?
9 A. No, I don't make marks like that.
10 Q. Who did you get these portions of an
11 EIR from?
12 A. I believe it was from -- well, her
13 first name was Pam -- Dolker. I'm not sure of
14 the last name.
15 Q. This is the lady you were talking about
16 previously?
17 A. No, no.
18 Q. This is somebody else?
19 A. This is somebody else, yes.
20 Q. Who is Pam Doker?
21 A. She's one of the homeowners.
22 Q. Do you know where she lives?
23 A. No, I don't.
24 Q. One of your news- --
25 A. Maybe it's Dogrin. I'm not sure. I'm
326
1 sure you know her, but I don't.
2 Q. Do you know if she's a plaintiff in
3 this lawsuit?
4 A. To my knowledge, she is.
5 Q. One of your newsletters or fliers
6 reference certain portions from EIRs in connection
7 with the Anaheim Hills. Is that where you got that
8 information from, from this lady, Pam Doker, or
9 whatever her name is?
10 A. Doctrin? You don't recall it?
11 Q. I don't, but there are a lot of
12 plaintiffs and I don't know each of their names.
13 A. I believe this is where I got the EIRs.
14 Q. Did you have any discussion with her as
15 to where she got that information?
16 A. From -- she mentioned it and I'm not --
17 I don't really recall. It could have been the
18 library.
19 Q. Did she call you up and say that she
20 had certain information that you might be interested
21 in looking at, or something to that effect?
22 A. No, she didn't have my phone number.
23 Q. How did it come about that you and she
24 talked and that she gave you these materials that
25 have been marked as Exhibit 48?
327
1 A. I believe it was at one of the general
2 meetings.
3 Q. General meetings again are the
4 meeting -- the town hall meetings?
5 A. The town hall meetings at either the
6 medical center or the Mormons.
7 Q. Did she give you the entire EIRs as
8 opposed to excerpts from those EIRs?
9 MR. STONER: Objection. No foundation.
10 THE WITNESS: I don't know. By "entire," I
11 don't know what all -- what all of the EIRs
12 entailed, so I don't know if I received them all.
13 BY MR. SALINGER:
14 Q. Did you at any point review something
15 that you understood to be an entire EIR for a
16 development?
17 A. I don't recall.
18 Q. Do you believe this handwriting that's
19 on page 7 and the third page of the clump of
20 documents that have been marked as Exhibit 48, page
21 7 being the first page, that's Ms. Dolker's
22 handwriting?
23 MR. STONER: Objection. No foundation, calls
24 for speculation.
25 THE WITNESS: I have no idea. Yeah, I think
328
1 it's Dogrin now that we're -- I don't think it's
2 Dolker anymore.
3 BY MR. SALINGER:
4 Q. Okay. Dogrin.
5 MR. STONER: I think it's Dogris.
6 THE WITNESS: Dogris, that's it -- okay.
7 BY MR. SALINGER:
8 Q. When she gave you what we've marked as
9 Exhibit 48, was the handwriting already on it?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Did you discuss the content of
12 Exhibit 48 with anyone other than Ms. Dogris?
13 A. The EIRs were something that were
14 brought up frequently with the homeowners at the
15 meetings.
16 Q. Now are you talking about meetings
17 involving the city or meetings just among the
18 homeowners?
19 A. I'm talking about the general meetings
20 at the medical center and the Mormon.
21 Q. Church.
22 Let me show you another document that
23 was in the documents produced by you to my office in
24 this litigation, and this is a three-page packet,
25 really, that's -- the first page is dated
329
1 February 1, 1993, and it says "Hidden Canyon
2 Homeowners Association. Meeting regarding earth
3 slippage." And we'll mark that as Exhibit 49.
4 (Defendant's Exhibit 49 was marked for
5 identification by the Certified Shorthand Reporter,
6 a copy of which is attached hereto.)
7 BY MR. SALINGER:
8 Q. Mr. Steiner, my question is, did you
9 attend this meeting?
10 A. This was -- who held this? I really
11 don't know if I attended this meeting.
12 Q. You produced this document to us. I
13 had not seen it before, so I don't know what meeting
14 it relates to. I don't think -- I don't believe
15 it --
16 A. I really don't recall either. I know
17 that's not mine -- I didn't type this up.
18 Q. Did you go to a number of meetings of
19 homeowners belonging to various associations in the
20 January/February 1993 time frame?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Do you belong to the Hidden Canyon
23 Homeowners Association?
24 A. Ours is Anaheim Hills -- Anaheim Hills,
25 I believe? I don't really recall what association it
330
1 was.
2 Q. I think one of your associations is the
3 one represented by Ms. Long, which she previously
4 identified as Anaheim Estates Ridge Owners
5 Association.
6 A. That's a different association.
7 MR. STONER: Jerry, if you don't know, that's
8 a perfectly acceptable answer.
9 THE WITNESS: I don't know.
10 BY MR. SALINGER:
11 Q. So as you sit here today, you have no
12 recollection as to whether or not you attended this
13 meeting; is that correct?
14 A. I don't have a recollection of this
15 meeting, no.
16 Q. Okay. Now I'd like to show you some
17 fliers that you prepared in January, February, March
18 time frame of 1993. Let me show you the first one
19 that says "Public Notice" on the top. We'll mark
20 that as Exhibit 50.
21 (Defendant's Exhibit 50 was marked for
22 identification by the Certified Shorthand Reporter,
23 a copy of which is attached hereto.)
24 BY MR. SALINGER:
25 Q. Now, you prepared this document,
331
1 correct?
2 A. Yes.
3 Q. Is this the first flier that you
4 prepared in connection with the Anaheim Hills
5 landslide?
6 A. It's one of the first.
7 Q. When, approximately, did you prepare
8 this flier?
9 A. I don't recall.
10 Q. Was it pretty soon -- or strike that.
11 Was it pretty close to the time you
12 were evacuated, January 18?
13 A. It would have been in that month
14 period, I would think.
15 Q. Are you saying that would have been in
16 January or it would have been within 30 days of --
17 A. It would have been within 30 days of
18 the landslide, I would think.
19 Q. Okay. The first sentence of this
20 notice reads, "In 1978, while this area was still in
21 the planning stages, a landslide occurred in the
22 Rimwood section. This fact is documented by city
23 records."
24 The landslide that you're talking about
25 here, you're saying "in the Rimwood section." Can
332
1 you be any more precise as to where this landslide
2 was?
3 A. No, I can't.
4 Q. Where did you learn about this
5 landslide?
6 A. I don't recall at this time.
7 Q. Did anyone assist you in preparing this
8 public notice?
9 A. No. I put this together myself.
10 Q. The next sentence says, "This fact is
11 documented by city records."
12 Had you looked at the city records when
13 you prepared this notice?
14 A. I would have seen something. I don't
15 recall.
16 Q. You may have answered my -- this
17 question, but since you answered before I asked, let
18 me make certain we're on the same page.
19 Do you know what -- or what document is
20 it that made you say that the city had this in its
21 records?
22 A. I don't recall.
23 Q. Do you know what was involved in this
24 landslide? In other words, was a house damaged?
25 Did a lot of dirt move feet as opposed to inches?
333
1 A. I don't recall.
2 Q. Do you recall anything about the
3 information you had as to this landslide that you
4 reported in this flier?
5 A. I don't recall.
6 Q. When you say "Anaheim knew. Texaco
7 knew," what is it you were saying they knew?
8 A. That the landslide -- that they knew
9 of that landslide.
10 Q. In putting together this public notice,
11 did you verify your information with anyone employed
12 by the City of Anaheim?
13 A. I don't recall. No one -- I don't
14 recall.
15 Q. Third paragraph you say, "Texaco and
16 Anaheim figured out that the laws of average were on
17 their side: It had been 10,000 years since the
18 first landslide, so it would be at least another
19 10,000 before the third landslide occurred."
20 When you say "10,000 years before the
21 third landslide," what landslide are you talking
22 about now?
23 A. Our landslide, the one 30 feet from my
24 house.
25 Q. So at this point when you published
334
1 this flier, you knew about an ancient landslide that
2 involved your area?
3 A. Mark McLarty told me.
4 Q. So this was based upon what Mark had
5 told you --
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. -- in September?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. By the way, I take it that sometime at
10 or after -- soon after January 18th, you decided
11 that your property was involved in the land movement
12 that was occurring, correct?
13 A. I became aware of it, yes.
14 Q. Well, we've talked in the morning and
15 the early afternoon about the fact that you didn't
16 believe your property was involved, correct?
17 A. True.
18 Q. What was it that caused you to believe
19 your property was involved?
20 A. Being evacuated by the police, being
21 told it was unsafe to live there, having signs on
22 the street posted, bright yellow signs posted on the
23 street saying "Danger. Landslide area. Be careful
24 where you walk," those kind of things.
25 Q. And further on in this newsletter -- or
335
1 newsletter -- this notice, flier, whatever you want
2 to call it, the fourth paragraph you talk about
3 appreciable land movement in 1979, this time in the
4 Leafwood and Burlwood areas.
5 Where did you learn about that?
6 A. I don't recall.
7 Q. "Streets cracked, pools cracked,
8 sidewalks cracked. A geotechnical firm, D.A. Evans,
9 Inc. of Laguna Hills, was brought in to ascertain
10 the cause of the property damage. Their report
11 stated that earth movement was," quote, "caused by
12 the reactivation of an ancient landslide."
13 Where did you learn about that?
14 A. I don't recall.
15 Q. Did you ever read the D.A. Evans report
16 that you quote here?
17 A. I must have.
18 Q. Somebody gave you a copy of it, then?
19 A. Probably so.
20 Q. Who was that?
21 A. I don't -- I don't recall, actually,
22 who gave that to me or who I talked to about it -- to
23 my knowledge, I don't have a copy of that in my
24 possession.
25 Q. At one point you did, though?
336
1 A. I read it at one time.
2 Q. So at least at one point you had it in
3 front of you?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And right now you don't recall who gave
6 it to you to read it, correct?
7 A. I hate to blame Pam for everything.
8 Q. So you're saying it's your belief right
9 now that you got it from Pam, Pam Dogris?
10 A. Probably, probably.
11 Q. Does reading that paragraph refresh
12 your recollection that Pam would have been the
13 person who told you about the 1978 landslide
14 involving the Rimwood section?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Do you believe it was from some other
17 source that you learned of that information?
18 A. I don't recall.
19 Q. Was it from a document that you learned
20 that information?
21 A. I don't recall.
22 Q. Did you speak with the lady who called
23 you who used to be employed by the county about
24 landslides in the Anaheim Hills area during or
25 subsequent to development?
337
1 A. Only in relation to what I've already
2 said.
3 Q. Could she have been the source, then,
4 of that information --
5 A. No.
6 Q. -- regarding the 1978 landslide?
7 A. She wasn't.
8 Q. Did you ever speak to D.A. Evans
9 regarding his report on a 1979 landslide or earth
10 movement?
11 A. I don't believe I did.
12 Q. Have you ever spoken to anyone who you
13 understood to be a geologist or a geotechnical
14 engineer other than Mr. McLarty regarding the
15 Anaheim Hills problem?
16 A. I believe Mr. Evans. I don't recall
17 any other geologist.
18 Q. Other than Mr. Evans and Mr. McLarty?
19 A. Yes.
20 Q. Now, the last paragraph reads, "While
21 city officials, with their frozen smiles, are
22 calling this a," quote, "natural disaster," closed
23 quote, "a better term would be an unnatural disaster
24 since it was not born of God but rather spawned by
25 greed and corruption."
338
1 Did you at the time you wrote this
2 believe that you had any information regarding
3 corruption on the part of the City of Anaheim?
4 A. The corruption was the county. The
5 greed was the City of Anaheim.
6 Q. By "corruption," you're talking about
7 the supervisor who was removed because of his
8 alleged dealings with Texaco-Anaheim Hills?
9 A. Yes, yes.
10 Q. And when you say greed on the part of
11 the city, what did you understand to be greed on the
12 part of the city?
13 A. The City of Anaheim was faced with a
14 problem. They wanted to keep industry in Anaheim
15 but they also knew that if they're going to have
16 industry, they have to have an area for the owners
17 to live because owners love living near where their
18 business is, and they had no such area. So they
19 designated Anaheim Hills as the area to build nice
20 homes for the owners of the businesses.
21 So the greed was: they didn't want the
22 companies moving further south, which they had been
23 doing. They wanted to keep them in the area. So
24 they felt that they could bypass warnings that were
25 obvious and increase the coffers of the city.
339
1 So, yes, it's obvious greed.
2 Q. You know that Texaco-Anaheim Hills had
3 a geotechnical consultant, Converse Consultants,
4 that was advising it and preparing reports in
5 connection with the development of the area?
6 MR. STONER: Objection. Assumes a fact not
7 in evidence.
8 BY MR. SALINGER:
9 Q. Do you know that?
10 A. I've heard of Converse and I heard that
11 they were involved with Texaco.
12 Q. Do you know that they issued reports
13 basically describing how the area could be built
14 mitigating any geologic problem that might exist?
15 A. They never did it. To say you can do
16 it and don't do it are two different things.
17 Q. My question was, do you know that they
18 issued reports describing how any geotechnical
19 problem in the area, any geologic problem could be
20 mitigated in the course of construction?
21 A. I realize that they stated mitigating
22 measures could be taken.
23 Q. Have you reviewed any of Converse's
24 reports?
25 A. I believe I have read some of them.
340
1 Q. Have the reports that you read
2 concluded that in their professional opinion the
3 area could be safely built?
4 A. That was their statement, to my
5 knowledge.
6 Q. And do you know if the recommendations
7 regarding the way to safely build in the area were
8 followed?
9 A. The mitigating measure that they took
10 were obviously inadequate for the problem.
11 Q. Do you know if there's any report at
12 the time indicating that they were inadequate to
13 resolve the problem?
14 A. The EIRs.
15 Q. It's your understanding that the EIRs
16 said the mitigation measures recommended by Converse
17 were inadequate?
18 A. No, that's not the term.
19 Q. So when you wrote this flier that we're
20 looking at that's been marked as Exhibit 50, it was
21 your belief that the City of Anaheim okayed
22 construction in Anaheim Hills despite being told
23 that it was unsafe to do so?
24 A. Yes, yes. Besides knowing it was
25 unsafe, they never told the homeowners.
341
1 Q. And when you wrote this, did you know
2 whether or not Converse had told Texaco-Anaheim
3 Hills and the city that it would be safe to build in
4 areas of Anaheim Hills if certain mitigation
5 measures described in the Converse report were
6 followed?
7 A. Once again?
8 MR. SALINGER: Can I get you to read that.
9 THE REPORTER: "And when you wrote this, did
10 you know whether or not Converse had told
11 Texaco-Anaheim Hills and the city that it would be
12 safe to build in areas of Anaheim Hills if certain
13 mitigation measures described in the Converse report
14 were followed?"
15 THE WITNESS: No.
16 BY MR. SALINGER:
17 Q. Let me show you another one of your
18 fliers. We'll mark this one as 51. And it's
19 labeled "Landslide Update Number 3."
20 (Defendant's Exhibit 51 was marked for
21 identification by the Certified Shorthand Reporter,
22 a copy of which is attached hereto.)
23 BY MR. SALINGER:
24 Q. In looking through our records, I can't
25 find the landslide update number 2. I assume there
342
1 was a landslide update number 2?
2 MR. STONER: Objection. Calls for
3 speculation.
4 THE WITNESS: I don't know who devised this
5 numbering system. I'm not sure.
6 BY MR. SALINGER:
7 Q. I assume you put a number on the top?
8 A. Yes, I did.
9 Q. Okay.
10 A. I seem to have been generous.
11 Q. Now, the first flier was affixed to
12 your garage door? Is that what you did with the
13 first one?
14 A. Yes.
15 Q. Did you also mail out that flier to
16 interested parties?
17 A. I believe I did.
18 Q. Did you develop a mailing list from
19 some --
20 A. Yes, I did.
21 Q. -- source?
22 What was the source of your mailing
23 list?
24 A. The source of my mailing list. Well, I
25 might as well mention her name again. I believe it
343
1 was Pam. There was another girl that worked with me
2 too, or that they put a lot of information together.
3 Q. And this other lady was a homeowner in
4 the area, I presume?
5 A. Yes.
6 Q. Pam Dogris, do you know where she
7 lives, what street?
8 A. No, I don't.
9 Q. Were you the person who paid for
10 mailing these updates and fliers to various
11 homeowners?
12 A. Yes.
13 MR. STONER: Tom, what does that have to do
14 with any issue in this lawsuit besides trying to
15 make this guy's life miserable?
16 MR. SALINGER: I think it's relevant.
17 MR. STONER: To what?
18 MR. SALINGER: To find out who was fanning
19 the flames.
20 MR. STONER: His mailing costs are not being
21 claimed as an element of damage.
22 MR. SALINGER: Well, I don't know that.
23 MR. STONER: I've just made that
24 representation. Let's move on. Try and make some
25 progress.
344
1 THE WITNESS: Disseminating knowledge is not
2 fanning flames, sir.
3 BY MR. SALINGER:
4 Q. I don't want to engage in argument with
5 you, Mr. Steiner, but some of the rhetoric in here
6 is pretty inflammatory.
7 The middle paragraph on this one that's
8 been marked as Exhibit 51, last sentence -- strike
9 that.
10 The second to the last paragraph, that
11 one that says -- let me read it. "Above and beyond
12 any action you may be rightfully and righteously
13 contemplating against the City of Anaheim, please
14 contact a CPA."
15 I take it by the time you prepared
16 this, you had decided that litigation against the
17 City of Anaheim was appropriate?
18 MR. STONER: Are you asking him to confirm
19 that that's what you think?
20 MR. SALINGER: Let me rephrase it, then.
21 Thank you for that clarification.
22 Q. Was it your view at the time you
23 prepared this document that litigation against the
24 City of Anaheim was rightfully and righteously
25 appropriate?
345
1 A. I felt that I needed someone to
2 represent my interests.
3 Q. What I'm asking was, at that point had
4 you personally decided that litigation against the
5 City of Anaheim was appropriate?
6 A. I don't know that.
7 Q. Do you know when this update was
8 prepared?
9 A. It would have been after the other one,
10 but, no, I don't have a date on it.
11 Q. From what you said, I assume Pam Dogris
12 helped you in this one as well. Is that accurate?
13 MR. STONER: That that's your assumption?
14 MR. SALINGER: No. I'll rephrase it. Thank
15 you, Mr. Stoner, again for your assistance.
16 Q. Did Pam Dogris assist you in the
17 preparation of this flier?
18 A. No one assisted me in the preparation
19 of a flier. I wrote them all myself.
20 Q. Was one of your intents in
21 disseminating these fliers to encourage more people
22 to sue the City of Anaheim?
23 A. My purpose was to tell them what was
24 going on and for them to make their own decisions.
25 I'm not a lover of lawyers. Whoops.
346
1 Q. You seem to be in their company on
2 occasion.
3 A. Yes. Twice by you people.
4 Q. That's true.
5 A. Oh, you do know. I didn't know that.
6 I didn't know that they had tied the
7 two together.
8 Q. Let me show you another one of your
9 fliers. This one says at the top "Landslide Update
10 Number 4." And this will be Exhibit 51.
11 THE REPORTER: 52.
12 MS. CALAWAY: 2.
13 MR. SALINGER: 52.
14 (Defendant's Exhibit 52 was marked for
15 identification by the Certified Shorthand Reporter,
16 a copy of which is attached hereto.)
17 BY MR. SALINGER:
18 Q. On this one, I guess it's the fourth
19 paragraph down, it starts with this sentence, "I
20 attended an association meeting the other night and
21 was quite surprised at the number of people who
22 still have no inkling of the disaster's magnitude."
23 What did you mean by the "magnitude"?
24 Are you talking about the size here of what you
25 perceive to be the landslide or something else?
347
1 A. The size of the landslide.
2 Q. What did you understand to be the size
3 of the landslide when you prepared this landslide
4 update?
5 A. I still don't know how large it is.
6 Q. What did you understand -- what was
7 your understanding when you --
8 A. Encompassing our whole area.
9 Q. And by "whole area," did you mean --
10 did you include north of Serrano?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. Now, this is the one that you included
13 snippets from the EIR, and so I take it this update
14 was put together in part based upon materials
15 supplied to you by Ms. Dogris; is that correct?
16 A. If you could use the word "quote"
17 rather than "snippet." It sounds like a little
18 creature.
19 MR. STONER: And if you could also phrase it
20 as to what he knows as opposed to asking him to
21 confirm what you assume or how you take something,
22 it would make for a more clear record.
23 MR. SALINGER: Okay. I'll be glad to follow
24 that advice, Mr. Stoner.
25 Q. So you're agreeing that -- strike that.
348
1 This was prepared based upon quotes
2 from the EIRs supplied by Ms. Dogris?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Now, two-thirds of the way down you
5 say, and I'm quoting, "While A and B show, beyond a
6 doubt, that where we live is fraught with numerous
7 landslides -- knowledge that the City of Anaheim has
8 had and kept from us since the early 1970s," and it
9 goes on.
10 Was your belief when you authored this
11 that the City of Anaheim intentionally kept
12 information from homeowners in the area?
13 A. Yes, intentionally.
14 Q. And how did the City of Anaheim keep
15 the information from homeowners in the area?
16 A. If you know something that's going to
17 be detrimental to another person, you are keeping it
18 from them. Being good and conscientious, you should
19 disseminate that information.
20 Q. Did you mean anything further by the
21 phrase "kept from" other than what you just now
22 indicated?
23 A. All the homeowners came in -- when
24 people purchased the home, they had no knowledge of
25 it being a landslide area. The city knew the whole
349
1 time. The city knew.
2 Q. The city knew because it had geological
3 records?
4 A. It had all the information.
5 Q. When you purchased the home, did you
6 make any effort to review the geological records
7 pertaining to the area?
8 A. Even if I had the map, I would have
9 been hard pressed to actually locate the spot.
10 Q. In fact, you were provided a soils
11 report, were you not, when you purchased the house
12 from Liberty National Bank?
13 A. That, I don't recall.
14 Q. Doesn't it say that on the addendum to
15 the escrow instructions that you signed?
16 MR. STONER: Objection. The document speaks
17 for itself. Instruct the witness not to answer.
18 What's the point of having him read documents that
19 you have that we've produced to you?
20 MR. SALINGER: Well, you won't let me ask him
21 a question the other way.
22 MR. STONER: Your question was, "Does it say
23 it on the document?" I'll stipulate that if it says
24 it on the document, it says it on the document. I
25 just don't know why you need to belabor it with the
350
1 homeowners.
2 MR. SALINGER: Kelly, do you have Exhibit 4?
3 THE REPORTER: No. It should be in the
4 transcript.
5 MS. CALAWAY: I have it, Tom.
6 MR. SALINGER: Here, I can let the witness
7 look at my copy.
8 Q. This is the addendum to the escrow
9 instruction previously marked as Exhibit 4. Item 5
10 in the second page, "Plans and specs for blueprints
11 are to be given to buyer in addition to CC&Rs and
12 soils report."
13 MS. CALAWAY: Counsel, do you have a PMS
14 cite, please? They're Bates stamped.
15 MR. SALINGER: Yes, I do. It's PMS 1829.
16 MR. STONER: Objection. The document speaks
17 for itself.
18 BY MR. SALINGER:
19 Q. Does this refresh your recollection
20 that you were given a soil report at the time that
21 you --
22 A. No, it doesn't. It doesn't.
23 Q. Did you review any soil report or
24 geotechnical doc- --
25 A. I --
351
1 Q. Let me finish, please.
2 Did you review any soil report or
3 geotechnical report at the time you purchased the
4 property from Liberty National?
5 A. Not to my knowledge.
6 Q. On this landslide update, did you --
7 strike that.
8 You were now mailing these to a number
9 of homeowners, correct?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Approximately how many homeowners were
12 you mailing it to?
13 A. I believe 200.
14 Q. Did you pay for the postage for all
15 this mailing?
16 A. Yes.
17 MR. STONER: What is the relevance of that,
18 Tom?
19 MR. SALINGER: I just told you what I think
20 the relevance is when you made the objection before.
21 Q. Okay. Let me show you another
22 newsletter, flier. Mark this as next in order.
23 MR. SALINGER: What is it? 53? This one
24 says at the top "Property Tax Refunds."
25 (Defendant's Exhibit 53 was marked for
352
1 identification by the Certified Shorthand Reporter,
2 a copy of which is attached hereto.)
3 THE WITNESS: Whatever happened to Citron?
4 BY MR. SALINGER:
5 Q. His demise is well chronicled.
6 The quote at the outset of this
7 newsletter talking to attorney Patrick Catalano, is
8 that the attorney that you spoke to in connection
9 with potential representation in this matter?
10 A. He spoke to the homeowners.
11 Q. In the second paragraph you talk about
12 a sale of a home just outside of the impacted area
13 was killed when the lender, not the buyer, pulled
14 out just prior to completion of escrow.
15 Do you know who the owner of this home
16 was that you were referencing here?
17 A. I don't recall.
18 Q. Do you know where that home was?
19 A. I don't recall.
20 Q. Is it still your view that homes in the
21 impacted area are not saleable?
22 A. It depends.
23 Q. It depends on what?
24 A. What they're willing to sell for and
25 what the mortgage situation is with the -- if it's a
353
1 bank-owned property. There's a lot of variables.
2 Q. But I gather you're saying that if the
3 price goes down enough, it's saleable assuming the
4 lender goes along?
5 A. Price corrects for every fault of a
6 property.
7 Q. Okay. Let's go on to landslide update
8 number 5, which is Exhibit -- we'll mark as
9 Exhibit 54.
10 (Defendant's Exhibit 54 was marked for
11 identification by the Certified Shorthand Reporter,
12 a copy of which is attached hereto.)
13 BY MR. SALINGER:
14 Q. This is my personal fav.
15 In the middle of this one you indicate
16 that "The City of Anaheim plans to keep us divided
17 by addressing each of the associations separately,
18 according to Dennis Schmidt, our liaison to the
19 unseen City Fathers."
20 What was it that Mr. Schmidt told you,
21 if anything, that resulted in this comment?
22 A. I don't recall.
23 Q. Do you know if it was a comment made
24 directly to you as opposed to a comment made by
25 Mr. Schmidt at a meeting where others attended?
354
1 A. I really don't recall.
2 Q. The last sentence in that paragraph
3 says, "The last thing the City of Anaheim and Texaco
4 want to face is 350 homeowners united in a common
5 cause."
6 Was one of the purposes of your fliers
7 and updates to unite the homeowners in a common
8 cause against City of Anaheim and Texaco?
9 A. My feeling is that the homeowners being
10 united in whatever they decided was the best method
11 than having a bunch of splinter groups.
12 Q. But in this sentence you're talking
13 about a common cause involving the City of Anaheim
14 and Texaco, were you not?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. And the very last sentence of this
17 flier says, "Any law firm that has confidence in
18 their own ability to win will gladly take the
19 case" -- or "this case on a contingency basis."
20 You're talking about a case against
21 City of Anaheim and others?
22 A. Yes.
23 Q. In the fourth paragraph of this letter
24 you say, "There was an initial attempt to foist onto
25 the homeowners a law firm whose geologist was being
355
1 sued for gross incompetence."
2 Do you recall the name of that
3 geologist?
4 A. No, I don't.
5 Q. Do you recall the name of that law
6 firm?
7 A. I believe so.
8 Q. What is the name of that law firm?
9 A. I believe it was --
10 Q. You've described some conversations
11 you've had with Mark McLarty that were after town
12 hall meetings. Did you have any such discussions
13 with Dennis Schmidt?
14 A. No.
15 Q. Did you have any discussions with
16 Dennis Schmidt in any other context, phone
17 conversations or private meetings at the emergency
18 center?
19 A. Not as I recall.
20 Q. How about with Natalie Meeks?
21 A. Oh, Natalie --
22 Q. Was known as Lockman. Now her last
23 name is Meeks.
24 A. Right, right, right, right. She
25 changed her name.
356
1 Q. Excuse me. What was that? She changed
2 her name to what?
3 MR. STONER: Meeks.
4 THE WITNESS: Oh, I had conversations with
5 Natalie, yes.
6 BY MR. SALINGER:
7 Q. About what specific topics?
8 A. It was all in relation to the
9 landslide.
10 Q. Do you recall with any greater
11 specificity than the general nature of the
12 conversation of being about the landslide?
13 A. Oh, sometimes I was irate. One time I
14 talked to her about the fact that the city didn't
15 respond to the flowing, the river going down into
16 that open wound until the last minute when they
17 sent out their crew, and other matters. I blamed
18 her. I told her, you know, that I felt that she was
19 responsible because she knew about it and did
20 nothing.
21 Q. The water flowing into -- what you call
22 the torrent, whatever it is?
23 A. It was.
24 Q. And that was on or about January 18th
25 that you complained to her about it?
357
1 A. No. It was earlier than that, because
2 it had been raining and every time it would rain,
3 we'd see the water going down there. So we had
4 called her -- "we," my wife, had called her prior to
5 that and nothing was done.
6 Q. Do you recall the substance of any
7 other conversation with Natalie?
8 A. She did ask me on that one -- on one
9 occasion for -- possibly she asked me on two
10 occasions for the map.
11 Q. Anything else?
12 A. Offhand, no, I don't recall.
13 Q. Okay. Let's look at landslide update
14 number 7, which will be marked as Exhibit 55.
15 MR. STONER: I believe we should end on your
16 favorite because Mr. Logan had asked to leave before
17 4:00, and if we're going to pick a new date today,
18 it seems it always takes us at least ten minutes to
19 do that.
20 MR. SALINGER: Okay.
21 MR. LOGAN: Counsel, I appreciate that very
22 much.
23 MR. SALINGER: Let me get my calendar.
24 THE REPORTER: Off the record?
25 MR. SALINGER: Yeah.
358
1 (Recess taken from 3:44 p.m. to
2 3:48 p.m.)
3 MR. SALINGER: Back on the record.
4 We've compared calendars and we've
5 decided to continue the deposition to June 13th at
6 9:00 a.m. at Rutan & Tucker's offices.
7 Everyone have a good weekend.
8 THE WITNESS: It should be wonderful.
9 (WHEREUPON THE DEPOSITION CONCLUDED AT
10 3:49 P.M.)
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